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petale46
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Posted on Tue, Feb 03, 2009 06:53

Anyone who has read my blogs for a while know that I believe religion to be a source of conflicts more then any other human invention.? We haven't got the message from religion as there are conflicts, poverty, starvation around the world.

Do you believe that moral comes from religion?? Could there be moral without religion.?

Do you think that if religion had not been invented we would be going around killing and raping left and right??

Do humans owe their moral compass to religion or like any other animals, is it part of the genetic and social fiber.



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petale46
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Posted on Thu, Feb 12, 2009 07:04

Truefriendinme.

I'm totally agree with you. I believe moral to be instinctive or genetic not religious. We have killed more people in the name of religion (all religions put together) then before religions were created. A pack of wolf, they don't go around killing eachother.

The funny thing, why has the Bible NOT not condemn certain acts condemn by law. Do not kill, do not steal, do not try to get into your neighbourg's wife pants. If religion was the really a moral setter, where's the do not rape. There are a few stories of rape in the Bible, why is it not a commandment. Do not abuse children physically, emotionnally or sexually. Children, big No No!! Why have 4 commandments on not worshipping other Gods (which is not illegal) and have none about rape, abuse, declaring war to make a buck (ok not illegal, but I'd say immoral.



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truefriendinme
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Posted on Wed, Feb 11, 2009 18:31

Petale: Even so, take the religion out. STILL, you get a "feeling" when you know something is wrong. Do you think a five year old gives a rat's behind which church he goes to? But,when he's stolen that candy bar from the candy store, you can BET your butt he's worried he'll get caught. Good blog.--True


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petale46
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Posted on Tue, Feb 10, 2009 01:16

Islandgal

I'm a catholic. I was baptized a catholic, went to a school ruled by nuns for a long time, doing the cathechism, prayers and all the ritual including confession. That has always kind of disturbing to me. We had to go to confession once a week. Every Thurday, 11h00, class after class we would move into the chapel and confess our sins. As an 8 year old, I didn't think of life in 'sin factor', I thought I was getting 30 minutes or so out of class. I'd have to remember what sin I had committed that week and as an 8 year old I couldn't remember sins. So every week, without fault, I'd confess to pulling my little sister's hair, hurting my mom's feeling and lying to my dad, and everyweek I'd have to say a Hail Mary and I was good.

I think it's this kind of buying absolution that make a lot of people forget the message. Why make an effort of being good when you can be bad, say a couple of hail Mary and you're good again. It might sound simplistic, but think about it. Just by being in church, any church, any religion, by attending or completing the rituals we feel like we are good. Takes away from having to be good.



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petale46
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Posted on Tue, Feb 10, 2009 01:06

Chattytim

Love Richard Dawkins! I'd go out with him, love his witt, intelligence, and he's a bastard in a charming way. He can placate an argument in a spin and his rational is impeccable. I don't agree with some of his more extremes positions, but you have to admit, he raises some valid, scientifically proven points.

I agree with you, American are religious fondamentalist. No one in Quebec or Canada has ever publicly denied evolution. Nobody would risk it. People would question for how long his family have been inter marrying. To believe in creationism, virgin birth and the flood, you have to be one. To see 3 out of 10 member of Parliament saying on a political platform that they believe in the creation theory is unheard of here. Just to question a politician on his religious belief on his political platform is hardly acceptable.

No parents would just take his/her daughter's words, if she came home pregnant and say it to be an immaculate conception. He'd take her ass to the doctor to demand proof before he'd believe her. Do you really think he'd never have her tested and just believe it. Yet we are asks to do just that from 2,000 years ago because a book asks us to, and only two gospel out of 4 mention it. Not a word on the subject from the other two. The author didn't seem to think that being born out of a virgin women was important enough to make the cut into the book.

I really enjoyed your comment. I'll be looking for more from you. Thank you



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islandgal64
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Posted on Mon, Feb 09, 2009 14:14

Answering from a more "local" perspective I can say this .... I do not consider myself to be terribly religious but I believe I have a fairly strong sense of morality. I try to treat people well because I believe that is a good way to be, not because any god tells me to. I know some lovely people; they range from atheist to staunch Catholic. They all have good levels of morality and treat people pretty well. Worryingly I can think of a number of folk I know who call themselves Christian and worship their god regularly. Yet they treat family, friends, colleagues etc in a way that seems less than pleasant. But it seems to all be ok in their minds because they are Christian and they go to church. So what's that all about??!!


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Katwoman1968
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Posted on Mon, Feb 09, 2009 11:48

Quoting: Originally posted by petale46
Katwoman I know it's about our life experience. At the same time, what life experience made you have faith. It was given to you by your parents when you were a young child just by taking you to church where all the rituals got to your imagination as a child. Did you really experienced something miraculous or were you just charmed by the ritualistic pagentry of religion.


Nothing miraculous at all....just the ritual.


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chattytim
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Posted on Mon, Feb 09, 2009 10:52

I fancy a 16th Century Catholic Bishop calculated the date of creation to be 4004 BC. I don't think many Europeans believe this now but I understand that it is much more widely believed in America. Anyway, I recently read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, and Id highly reccommend it to anyone interestd in this thread. Even if you strongly disagree with Dawkins, his book is extremely well written and choc full of his excellent wit! XX


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petale46
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Posted on Sat, Feb 07, 2009 08:35

Truefriendinme. I get your point, but if I may interject I can agree with you only if I believe in Adam and Eve and the creation theory. I happen to believe in scientifical proof that the earth is not 4,000 years old like the bible teaches us and that men are the result of constant evolution. If the Adam and Eve theory was right, there was a lot of inbreading. Cain has his kids with his mother Eve, those kids married eachother, etc. It's a proven fact that inbreading creates a lot of serious defects, the most obvious and frequent being down syndrome. Also, nature is so balance that it will defend There is a much higher level of sterility after one generation of inbreading. If the story was true, then Adam and Eve's great-great-great grand children would all have down syndrome and would be totally sterile. What a thriving start!!! hehehehe


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petale46
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Posted on Sat, Feb 07, 2009 08:30

Dirk Thank you. But what is it I rock. Your boat? I rock and roll?? I rock the consensus. Remember dear I'm french and I have the weirdest lack of vocabulary in english. Got to elaborate cher!!


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petale46
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Posted on Sat, Feb 07, 2009 08:28

Katwoman I know it's about our life experience. At the same time, what life experience made you have faith. It was given to you by your parents when you were a young child just by taking you to church where all the rituals got to your imagination as a child. Did you really experienced something miraculous or were you just charmed by the ritualistic pagentry of religion.


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petale46
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Posted on Sat, Feb 07, 2009 08:26

Ozredhead. I like you style, but let me send it back at you. Yes religion offers eternity, but what if from the moment we are born, we have the scientific proof, a bible of sort or the innate convinction that there is nothing after life. What would our morals be??


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truefriendinme
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Posted on Fri, Feb 06, 2009 23:11

In my opinion, morals really derive from how we FEEL, therefore it is already within us. Religion is taught. You aren't born "knowing" you are Jewish, Catholic, Baptist, etc. But you KNOW it is wrong for you to steal that candy at the checkout stand--that's why you hide it. So, religious fanatics and zealouts beware: the following may offend :) To put it in the most basic parallel I can think of: Even Adam and Eve had morals. They weren't shunned from the Garden of Eden because they practiced Judaism over Christianity--it was because they CHOSE to ignore their FEELINGS of right and wrong. God didn't TELL them it was wrong, he just told them not to do it! God knew they would FEEL it if they were doing something wrong. So, to answer your question, Petale. Morals came first. Just my opinion.--True


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Katwoman1968
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Posted on Fri, Feb 06, 2009 08:59

Quoting: Originally posted by petale46

Katwoman

¿

So if doesn't come from religion.... Is it genetic or something acquired??



Petale....I think it is acquired by how you were raised and your life experiences. Then again what do I know...LOL


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ozredhead62
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Posted on Fri, Feb 06, 2009 01:30

Wow Petale you might be opening up a can of worms here, what are those topics we should avoid?¿ LOL

¿

I dont believe that we as a species, not having religion as a guiding hand, would become feral without¿morals or¿ethical behavior.

¿

People are generally good and have an inner radar for right and wrong.¿ This is not something acquired genetically but something that is individual to each and every person.¿

¿

We are NOT the meat bodies that are open to public display; we are more than this, something spiritual, an energy.¿ Actually everything is this universe is an energy.

¿

Having had 3 boys who were raised in the same manner, I have had it confirmed that the environmental factor is an influence, but only one that is very sight.

¿

Religion may scare or entice us to behave more so in a particular manner but so do the laws of society.

¿

What religion offers is eternity.¿ Good or bad ....live forever.

¿

Now energy never dies, its just transferred, I do wonder how people would view religion if they thought that they already had eternity?

¿

Sorry but YOU started it.¿ :)



Life is only as wonderful as you think it is.

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petale46
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Posted on Thu, Feb 05, 2009 17:31

Katwoman

¿

So if doesn't come from religion.... Is it genetic or something acquired??



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Katwoman1968
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Posted on Thu, Feb 05, 2009 12:31

Quoting: Originally posted by petale46

I understand what you are saying Katwoman, but my question was do we need religion to have a moral stance.



I don't believe we need to have religion to have a moral stance. Anyone can be "moral" if they truly want to....it's inside of us.


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petale46
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Posted on Thu, Feb 05, 2009 08:05

I'm a catholic too.¿ Was baptized, went to schools runned by nuns up to 10th grade.¿ When I was young, everyone around was catholic.¿¿But the church here became too powerful and abused their power.¿ People left the church in great numbers over a short period of time.¿ These days, except for new immigrants (mostly muslim) most people don't practice any religion.¿ But it doesn't mean that we are atheist.

However, my point is, that even though we are a totally secular society and we are not really religious as a group, moral level haven't change.¿ ¿



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petale46
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Posted on Wed, Feb 04, 2009 17:59

I understand what you are saying Katwoman, but my question was do we need religion to have a moral stance.



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Katwoman1968
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Posted on Wed, Feb 04, 2009 08:18

For me personally my morality comes from my religious background and upbringing. I was made to go to Catholic school for all 12 years. I also attended church growing up every Sunday and if there were religious days sometimes up to 3x per week. I guess in the scheme of things something must have took because I'm probably a goody-2-shoes sometimes and I think it's because of what was instilled in me attending Catholic schools. I think if others had the same upbringing they might be the same way. Religion certainly can't hurt a person's moral stance.


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